Ling-TeX: long-s ... in italic ...

[Christina Thiele]

Hi there. A special character question ...

I've got an article which is citing very old French sources,
and a very short passage is using a long-s -- rather like
math mode's integral sign ... rather like IPA's \esh ...

I found a lovely little cheat here:

http://www.york.ac.uk/depts/maths/histstat/letter.htm


% Long s
\newcommand{\s}{\mbox{$\int$}}


which works with the integral sign from math mode.

I'm using a 10pt Times font and found I needed to do a bit of
custom-fitting on the sides, so the variations I came up with
are due to the different spacing that it has when either
preceded or followed by an `i':

\newcommand{\longs}{{\small\mbox{$\int$}\kern-.15em}}
\newcommand{\longsi}{{\small\mbox{$\int$}\kern-.25em}}
\newcommand{\longis}{{\small\mbox{\kern-.15em$\int$}\kern-.15em}}

So I'm happy and moving along nicely, till I find a case of long-s in
italics ... well ... the \int won't do that ;-(

Have I hit a dead-end as far as using \int goes? Should I back out of
the above and find something different? I found a reference to the yfonts,
but haven't looked at any char. chart to see what the long-s looks like.

The ms I have doesn't actually use the integral style of curly ascender
and descender -- it's more like a lowercase-f without the cross-stroke :-)

Is _that_ sort of long-s shape out there in some non-commercial font?

Any suggestions for a simple solution -- I don't have more than half a
dozen in the whole article.

Thanks!

Ch.

[Urs Walther]

Hi Christina,

there's a character called "Latin Small Letter Long S" (Font Encoding
Latin Extended-A) which has the Unicode code "017F" or UTF8 "C5 BF".
Here on my Mac, I can find it in fonts like Palatino, Lucida Grande
or Times, but also in free fonts like Charis or Gentium. I've no idea
how to put this in LaTeX, but I guess it should be no problem if you
have the Unicode info.

Hope this helps!

Urs.

PS: See also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_Extended-A_Unicode_block (it's the
last character in this table) and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_s

Post by Christina Thiele
Hi there. A special character question ...
I've got an article which is citing very old French sources,
and a very short passage is using a long-s -- rather like
math mode's integral sign ... rather like IPA's \esh ...
http://www.york.ac.uk/depts/maths/histstat/letter.htm
% Long s
\newcommand{\s}{\mbox{$\int$}}
which works with the integral sign from math mode.
I'm using a 10pt Times font and found I needed to do a bit of
custom-fitting on the sides, so the variations I came up with
are due to the different spacing that it has when either
\newcommand{\longs}{{\small\mbox{$\int$}\kern-.15em}}
\newcommand{\longsi}{{\small\mbox{$\int$}\kern-.25em}}
\newcommand{\longis}{{\small\mbox{\kern-.15em$\int$}\kern-.15em}}
So I'm happy and moving along nicely, till I find a case of long-s in
italics ... well ... the \int won't do that ;-(
Have I hit a dead-end as far as using \int goes? Should I back out of
the above and find something different? I found a reference to the yfonts,
but haven't looked at any char. chart to see what the long-s looks like.
The ms I have doesn't actually use the integral style of curly ascender
and descender -- it's more like a lowercase-f without the cross-stroke :-)
Is _that_ sort of long-s shape out there in some non-commercial font?
Any suggestions for a simple solution -- I don't have more than half a
dozen in the whole article.
Thanks!
Ch.

[Bernhard Físseni]

Hi, Christina and Urs,

Post by Urs Walther
there's a character called "Latin Small Letter Long S" (Font Encoding
Latin Extended-A) which has the Unicode code "017F" or UTF8 "C5 BF".
Here on my Mac, I can find it in fonts like Palatino, Lucida Grande
or Times, but also in free fonts like Charis or Gentium. I've no idea
how to put this in LaTeX, but I guess it should be no problem if you
have the Unicode info.

Unfortunately, it does not help (or hasn't helped me yet) when using
(pdf)latex: long s (Å¿) is replaced by short "s". For text with long s,
you can use Xe(La)TeX without problems, just using unicode.[1]

Post by Urs Walther

Post by Christina Thiele
% Long s
\newcommand{\s}{\mbox{$\int$}}
which works with the integral sign from math mode.

[
]

Post by Urs Walther

Post by Christina Thiele
So I'm happy and moving along nicely, till I find a case of long-s in
italics ... well ... the \int won't do that ;-(

[
]

Post by Urs Walther

Post by Christina Thiele
The ms I have doesn't actually use the integral style of curly ascender
and descender -- it's more like a lowercase-f without the cross-stroke :-)

A long s generally looks like a lowercase f without the cross-stroke.
As in italics, the f has a descender, the long s has one, too. You
might try the esh from (T)IPA, which is italic if unslanted – so you
might want to use the slanted version (using \emph); neither shape nor
kerning are perfect, but much better than \int, in my opinion. TIPA
also contains a Times-compatible font, which is handy for you. See the
attached file for a test.[2]

While getting an italic long s is thus relatively easy, the only way you
can get an upright, non-italic long s seems to be Xe(La)TeX (or a
gothic/fraktur font – but 
).

Good luck,

Bernhard

[1] The Times fonts on my computer seem to contain long "s" (or OSX
substitutes shapes well).
[2] Do not try the attached file using XeLaTeX, as it loads encodings
etc. When using Xe(La)TeX, you must load a font that contains long "s".

[Bernhard Físseni]

Hi again,

Post by Nathan Sanders
Apparently, the Day Roman font provides the true descender-less
version of long-s, using the string "s:", but I don't have the font
http://tug.ctan.org/cgi-bin/ctanPackageInformation.py?id=dayroman

Sorry to insist, but this is not the "true form", it is just the correct
form for that font and shape. The reason Day Roman contains a
descenderless version is that it is not italic. Today, the long s is
just a lowercase f without the stroke; thus it always descends if the f
does. (Exception: prints in which an adequate long s is not available
or is not used.) To clarify the letter shapes and descenders, see the
attached PDF in Times, Palatino and their TeX Gyre reincarnations.

Cheers,
Bernhard

[Christina Thiele]

Post by Bernhard Físseni
Hi again,
...
or is not used.) To clarify the letter shapes and descenders, see the
attached PDF in Times, Palatino and their TeX Gyre reincarnations.
Cheers,
Bernhard

Bernhard -- I looked at your .pdf ... and what you have under `Times'
seem to be the same roman/italic styles of long-s that the .doc file
from this ms was using.

Sooooo ... one would like to ask: how the heck did you get that
sample?!

Are these long-s shapes from an extended Times Roman (Type1) font
that one purchases from whoever's got it? Or is it hidden in one of the
`normal' Times fonts that are part of a standard TeX installation?

You dangled what I need in front of my nose ... and I'd really _really_
like to know how you did it ;-)

Ch.

[Bernhard Físseni]

Hi Christina,

Post by Christina Thiele

Post by Bernhard Físseni
...
or is not used.) To clarify the letter shapes and descenders, see the
attached PDF in Times, Palatino and their TeX Gyre reincarnations.

Bernhard -- I looked at your .pdf ... and what you have under `Times'
seem to be the same roman/italic styles of long-s that the .doc file
from this ms was using.
Sooooo ... one would like to ask: how the heck did you get that
sample?!

Getting a Times-like font with a long s is not too difficult. At least
TrueType and OpenType fonts often contain the long s. The problem is
how to access the character. XeTeX is the easiest TeXy solution, I assume.

For the PDF, I ‘cheated’ and used (Mac OS X) TextEdit; you can also get
these shapes if you use XeTeX and have a corresponding Times-like font
installed and just input the right long s Unicode character.[1] As I
already said, I have not found a way to access the long s through
pdftex, only with XeTeX, but I haven't tried too hard. Maybe you can
get around this limitation(?) by generating your own fonts (e.g. with
long instead of short s) and switching?

Post by Christina Thiele
Are these long s shapes from an extended Times Roman (Type1) font
that one purchases from whoever's got it? Or is it hidden in one of
the `normal' Times fonts that are part of a standard TeX installation?

TeX Gyre Termes (which looks extremely close to Times, as the PDF shows)
is free. Its OpenType fonts are distributed with TeXlive[2]. As for
commercial versions, both the Times New Roman (only newer ones?) fonts
that come with Microsoft Windows or Office and the Times font that comes
with Mac OS X also have the right shapes, and you should be able to
purchase similar fonts easily.



[1] Just copy from the PDF or the first text line of the TeX source in
my first post or look it up in a table; on newer Linux installation, at
least the German keyboard layout may allow to access the long s with
AltGr-Shift-s.
[2] For updates, see http://www.gust.org.pl/projects/e-foundry/tex-gyre

Post by Christina Thiele
You dangled what I need in front of my nose ... and I'd really _really_
like to know how you did it ;-)

Oops, this sound urgent. I hope, recommending XeTeX or font wizzardry
does not make you sneeze.

Cheers,
Bernhard

[Christina Thiele]

Post by Urs Walther
Hi Christina,

Post by Christina Thiele

Post by Bernhard Físseni
...
or is not used.) To clarify the letter shapes and descenders, see the
attached PDF in Times, Palatino and their TeX Gyre reincarnations.

Bernhard -- I looked at your .pdf ... and what you have under `Times'
seem to be the same roman/italic styles of long-s that the .doc file
from this ms was using.
Sooooo ... one would like to ask: how the heck did you get that
sample?!

Getting a Times-like font with a long s is not too difficult. At least
TrueType and OpenType fonts often contain the long s. The problem is
how to access the character. XeTeX is the easiest TeXy solution, I assume.
For the PDF, I cheated and used (Mac OS X) TextEdit; you can also get
these shapes if you use XeTeX and have a corresponding Times-like font
installed and just input the right long s Unicode character.[1] As I
already said, I have not found a way to access the long s through
pdftex, only with XeTeX, but I haven't tried too hard. Maybe you can
get around this limitation(?) by generating your own fonts (e.g. with
long instead of short s) and switching?

I'm not using that at all ... neither XeTeX nor pdfTeX. I'm still with
an `ordinary' TeX implementation -- TeXlive from 2003 ... I know ... I
hang my head in shame ;-(( But it works! Well, almost always!

And I'm using Type1 fonts, not TTF nor OpenType ...

I'm on a unixbox, and rely heavily on dvips and ps2pdf.

Post by Urs Walther

Post by Christina Thiele
Are these long s shapes from an extended Times Roman (Type1) font
that one purchases from whoever's got it? Or is it hidden in one of
the `normal' Times fonts that are part of a standard TeX installation?

TeX Gyre Termes (which looks extremely close to Times, as the PDF shows)
is free. Its OpenType fonts are distributed with TeXlive[2]. As for
commercial versions, both the Times New Roman (only newer ones?) fonts
that come with Microsoft Windows or Office and the Times font that comes
with Mac OS X also have the right shapes, and you should be able to
purchase similar fonts easily.
[1] Just copy from the PDF or the first text line of the TeX source in
my first post or look it up in a table; on newer Linux installation, at
least the German keyboard layout may allow to access the long s with
AltGr-Shift-s.
[2] For updates, see http://www.gust.org.pl/projects/e-foundry/tex-gyre

I'll see what I can do. For all I know, the author'll be happy enough
with the results, but I confess to not liking a mere .doc file having
a font show up that I can't do in TeX ... just doesn't seem right, you
know :-) His .doc had the long-s without the descender (so, an `f'
without the crossbar), whereas his long-s in italic did indeed have
the descender ... so he may like that the proofs have both of them
with descenders ...

Post by Urs Walther

Post by Christina Thiele
You dangled what I need in front of my nose ... and I'd really _really_
like to know how you did it ;-)

Oops, this sound urgent. I hope, recommending XeTeX or font wizzardry
does not make you sneeze.

Well, semi-urgent. I got the proofs done last night so there's now
some time till the corrections come back to find a solution.

The sneezing is from a head cold, though ... not this stuff ;-)


Thank you, everyone, for all the advice and suggestions. I'll try to
have a go at some solutions next week ...

Post by Urs Walther
Cheers,
Bernhard

Ch.

[Pavel Iosad]

Hi Christina

Post by Christina Thiele
I'm not using that at all ... neither XeTeX nor pdfTeX. I'm still with
an `ordinary' TeX implementation -- TeXlive from 2003 ... I know ... I
hang my head in shame ;-(( But it works! Well, almost always!

[...]

Post by Christina Thiele
I'm on a unixbox, and rely heavily on dvips and ps2pdf.

If you're on a unixbox, then installing the libertine package is a
matter of unpacking the libertine folder from
http://mirror.ctan.org/fonts/libertine.zip to a folder in your $PATH,
probably ~/texmf will work out of the box. And then a `texhash' I
guess, though in more modern installations you don't need it if you
install in ~/texmf. To install TeX Gyre Termes, recommended by
Bernhard (I note that its long s does have the descender!), use the
same procedure.

Pavel

[Christina Thiele]

Post by Urs Walther
Hi Christina

Post by Christina Thiele
I'm not using that at all ... neither XeTeX nor pdfTeX. I'm still with
an `ordinary' TeX implementation -- TeXlive from 2003 ... I know ... I
hang my head in shame ;-(( But it works! Well, almost always!

[...]

Post by Christina Thiele
I'm on a unixbox, and rely heavily on dvips and ps2pdf.

If you're on a unixbox, then installing the libertine package is a
matter of unpacking the libertine folder from
http://mirror.ctan.org/fonts/libertine.zip to a folder in your $PATH,
probably ~/texmf will work out of the box. And then a `texhash' I
guess, though in more modern installations you don't need it if you
install in ~/texmf. To install TeX Gyre Termes, recommended by
Bernhard (I note that its long s does have the descender!), use the
same procedure.
Pavel

You're a delight! Thanks for the cookbook instructions -- marvellous.
I'll see that the house sysadmin gets them! Thanks!

[Pavel Iosad]

Post by Pavel Iosad
If you're on a unixbox, then installing the libertine package is a
matter of unpacking the libertine folder from
http://mirror.ctan.org/fonts/libertine.zip to a folder in your $PATH,
probably ~/texmf will work out of the box.

Sorry, that's $TEXINPUTS, not $PATH, I wasn't thinking. ~/texmf should
still work, though.

Pavel

[Nathan Sanders]

One option to get a long-s is to use the esh-like character available
in the T4 encoding for African alphabets. It has the full range of
normal, italics, slanted, bold, and bold-italics forms:


\documentclass[12pt]{article}

\usepackage[T4,T1]{fontenc}

\newcommand{\s}{{\fontencoding{T4}\selectfont\m{s}}}

\begin{document}

\begin{tabular}{l}
Congre\s s\\
\textit{Congre\s s}\\
\textsl{Congre\s s}\\
\textbf{Congre\s s}\\
\textit{\textbf{Congre\s s}}\\
\end{tabular}

\end{document}


Apparently, the Day Roman font provides the true descender-less
version of long-s, using the string "s:", but I don't have the font
installed, so I haven't tested it:

http://tug.ctan.org/cgi-bin/ctanPackageInformation.py?id=dayroman

Nathan

Post by Urs Walther
Hi Christina,
there's a character called "Latin Small Letter Long S" (Font
Encoding Latin Extended-A) which has the Unicode code "017F" or UTF8
"C5 BF". Here on my Mac, I can find it in fonts like Palatino,
Lucida Grande or Times, but also in free fonts like Charis or
Gentium. I've no idea how to put this in LaTeX, but I guess it
should be no problem if you have the Unicode info.
Hope this helps!
Urs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_Extended-A_Unicode_block (it's
the last character in this table) and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_s

Post by Christina Thiele
Hi there. A special character question ...
I've got an article which is citing very old French sources,
and a very short passage is using a long-s -- rather like
math mode's integral sign ... rather like IPA's \esh ...
http://www.york.ac.uk/depts/maths/histstat/letter.htm
% Long s
\newcommand{\s}{\mbox{$\int$}}
which works with the integral sign from math mode.
I'm using a 10pt Times font and found I needed to do a bit of
custom-fitting on the sides, so the variations I came up with
are due to the different spacing that it has when either
\newcommand{\longs}{{\small\mbox{$\int$}\kern-.15em}}
\newcommand{\longsi}{{\small\mbox{$\int$}\kern-.25em}}
\newcommand{\longis}{{\small\mbox{\kern-.15em$\int$}\kern-.15em}}
So I'm happy and moving along nicely, till I find a case of long-s in
italics ... well ... the \int won't do that ;-(
Have I hit a dead-end as far as using \int goes? Should I back out of
the above and find something different? I found a reference to the yfonts,
but haven't looked at any char. chart to see what the long-s looks like.
The ms I have doesn't actually use the integral style of curly ascender
and descender -- it's more like a lowercase-f without the cross-
stroke :-)
Is _that_ sort of long-s shape out there in some non-commercial font?
Any suggestions for a simple solution -- I don't have more than half a
dozen in the whole article.
Thanks!
Ch.

[Pavel Iosad]

Hi, Christina

[...]

Post by Christina Thiele
I've got an article which is citing very old French sources,
and a very short passage is using a long-s -- rather like
math mode's integral sign ... rather like IPA's \esh ...

[...]

The free font Linux Libertine (which you can get off CTAN) has an
italic long s, and it seems reasonably close to Times (though better
IMO, and I use it as a drop-in replacement for mathptmx) for the long
s to look okay. Try the following example:

\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{libertine}
\usepackage{mathptmx}
\newcommand\longs{\useTextGlyph{fxl}{longs}}
\begin{document}
Thi\longs{} i\longs{} an example

\textit{Thi\longs{} i\longs{} an italic example}
\end{document}

HTH,
Pavel

[Christina Thiele]

Post by Bernhard Físseni
Hi, Christina
[...]

Post by Christina Thiele
I've got an article which is citing very old French sources,
and a very short passage is using a long-s -- rather like
math mode's integral sign ... rather like IPA's \esh ...

[...]
The free font Linux Libertine (which you can get off CTAN) has an
italic long s, and it seems reasonably close to Times (though better
IMO, and I use it as a drop-in replacement for mathptmx) for the long
\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{libertine}
\usepackage{mathptmx}
\newcommand\longs{\useTextGlyph{fxl}{longs}}
\begin{document}
Thi\longs{} i\longs{} an example
\textit{Thi\longs{} i\longs{} an italic example}
\end{document}
HTH,
Pavel

I'll give it a shot but it'll probably require some sysadmin
installation work on my husband's part :-)

But still -- looks like something worth taking time to set up.

Thanks!

Ch.

[Bernhard Físseni]

Hi, Pavel,

Post by Pavel Iosad
[...]

Post by Christina Thiele
I've got an article which is citing very old French sources,
and a very short passage is using a long-s -- rather like
math mode's integral sign ... rather like IPA's \esh ...

[...]
The free font Linux Libertine (which you can get off CTAN) has an
italic long s, and it seems reasonably close to Times (though better
IMO, and I use it as a drop-in replacement for mathptmx) for the long

this looks like a sensible solution without giving up pdflatex – thanks!

One could probably try to combine this with unicode support, I suppose?
At the moment, I am too lazy to try, however, and shall stick with
XeTeX where possible.

Cheers,
Bernhard